I have a Facepal acquaintance who suddenly started posting images against muslims that many would find offensive after the tragic attacks in Paris two days ago. I am sure most people have at least one such friend. Despite the efforts of so many people for so many years, it’s sad that this ignorance exists and even sadder that this individual claims to work in the same field as I do, so it’s even more depressing.
As with pretty much every bigot out there that you’ll meet, there is little or no credible evidence presented, it’s easily fallible when presented with data and as always, instead of persisting with the ‘peer review’, he finally gave up on our discussion, after falling on his sword, but as expected, didn’t have the courtesy to read the response to his response.
So I figured I’d post it here, warts and all. If nothing else, it might help someone else expose the real meaning behind the bigotry of some of their friends and perhaps offer the individual some compassion, even if you can’t offer them a brain cell. I’d encourage you to chop and change the words but not the reasoning in this conversation to suit your needs in conversing with ignorance and bigotry wherever you may find it or alternatively, turn it into some kind of “flowchart”. If you do, make sure to provide a link, as I’d like to see the artwork :)
So I began…
“So mister ******* I see you’re attacking a religion of over 1.6 billion for the actions of a 8 fanatics again. Was out on the raz last night, saw a cartoon or two, then fell asleep so not got round to answering this until this morning.
From a statistical perspective (note, I said statistical) could you explain your reasoning? Compare it to another group in a statistically sound manner. “I don’t need to justify myself” counts as you declaring an answer in favour of the fanatical terrorists who hope to destroy the world we live in by doing exactly what they’re doing. Because that’s what they want. They want people to think from that dictatorial or extreme position to “overthrow their governments” OR vote for something so right wing, that they are justified in going to further war with that right wing government as a mission of liberation for the people towards that bastardised version of Islam, thereby introducing their version of what they think is Sharia law. You’re falling face first into their trap.
Bear in mind that members of the Muslim world, some of whom will almost certainly have died in the attack (other than the self proclaimed ‘muslim’ gunmen), are reeling from this attack as well, so you are contributing to the suffering of victims families. But that’s OK, they’re only Muslims. Kind of like how lots of Muslims, who couldn’t believe the World Trade Center was hit, blamed the Americans, the CIA & FBI or a Zionist conspiracy. There isn’t a way you can argue that position where all Muslims come out as perpetrators. That leaves your position somewhat irrational and dare I say, equally extreme.
Even from the position of the victims, there is a huge chance many of them would have disagreed with your position. If you want to ditch anything with a Muslim or middle eastern source, you even have to stop doing the quadratic equations you were doing the other week, stop using base 64 encoding in your work, because the sexagesimal number system was perfected in the Middle East, as well as any of the digits 1–9 which together with zero, form the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. Think about how is based on that level of mathematics in math, physics, computing and pretty much any quantitative subject, and ditch all those and anything derived from those, you’ll be walking around naked. Good luck with that one.
In any case, the one thing I abhor as an atheist is ignorance and stupidity. That’s probably no great secret. I think you’ve seen from our previous conversations around math etc. That I am highly logical and pretty reasonable at what I do, with sadly, a mathematical brain that dwarfs yours. But stupidity is the sort of shit that makes my teeth hurt whoever is providing it and wherever it occurs. But most people have this ingrained believe system which places them beyond reason. Don’t worry, anyone exhibiting a position for the other side will get their smackdown too. You’re not unique in that regard.”
“Ethar, I agree with a lot of what you are saying (certainly not all of it though). I don’t know what I am more impressed with either; the time you took to write such a long message or the fact that you did it at 8am after a night on the raz. I will certainly take the time to explain my reasoning, especially as you had the intelligence to not mention the word ‘racist’ anywhere in your post thus separating yourself from the people who I see crying ‘racism’ all the time but who actually don’t seem to understand the difference between ‘race’, ‘stereotypicality’ and ‘religion’. You won’t be hearing “I don’t need to justify myself” from me as that phrase is reserved for the religious.
So, where on earth do I begin with all this. Lets start with my home, England. It wasn’t too long ago that Emily Davison threw herself in front of the king’s horse and killed herself in the name of women’s rights. It doesn’t even seem that long ago that the Europeans went across the Atlantic and butchered all the Native Americans. In fact it wasn’t too long ago that we were living in the Dark Ages. How far western society has come since those days.
When I was young I used to really love the UK and was proud to be a citizen and a part of Europe in general. I grew up in a culture that, despite having a history that was heavily influenced by what was once a violent religion, had learnt from its mistakes and had moved past all that. Pretty much all that remained of the darker past were the nice things like Christmas and Easter and beautiful old architecture etc. I used to hate being dragged to church on Sundays (despite believing in god myself back in those days) but I don’t look back and resent any of that because I understand that it was well intended and as I grew up I was left to freely decide for myself if I wanted to be a part of religion. This ‘being able to decide for yourself’ is the very essence of what made the UK so great.
At the same time though I was also keenly aware that I was having ‘multiculturalism’ rammed down my throat. This wasn’t a choice that I was free to make though; this was ‘You are having this whether you like it or not because we are going to force it upon even if you don’t like it’. Don’t get me wrong here; I think the world would be a boring place without other cultures and I love how each brings enrichment in its own way to society as a whole. I also love my own English culture as well and here in England is the only place in the world where a person can come to experience native English culture the same as France is the only place you can go to experience French native culture. I welcome with open arms anyone, no matter what race they may be, who wants to come here to experience English culture alongside me.
What I do NOT welcome though is anyone who wants to come here and live in this culture but instead of living alongside me and becoming a part of my culture they want to instead change it to suit their own. This is the only place in the world where my culture is native and that should never change.
When you said that I shouldn’t ‘fall face first in to the governments trap to make me hate all muslims’, you couldn’t be further from the actual truth. I had issues with islam LONG before the government started using it as a tool to manipulate people in to agreeing to wars. I had issues with it from the day it began to be rammed down my throat against my will as a child which went directly against my freedom of choice. I had issues with islam since I started seeing women in burqas, a symbol of complete and utter female oppression that goes against everything that Emily Davison died for, and which as a society we moved away from, walking the supermarket isles and streets and metaphorically screaming ‘we are islam, we are here and we have absolutely no intention of integrating in to your native culture’. Islam does not want any part of English culture or any other culture for that matter. It is intolerant of our way of life. Holding your partners hand and kissing will see you jailed in Dubai, as will drinking alcohol, and that’s the light side of things. Blasphemy, apostasy or being homosexual will see you publicly executed by stoning or beheading in Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic states. Iran and Somalia also have regular public executions to this very day and all for so called ‘crimes’ that wouldn’t even get you jail time here. Oh, and it isn’t just executions by the way, it is public entertainment that people from all around come to watch and the people of those countries accept it as part of their way of life. Theres a few million of your 1.6 billion for you. These people are still living in the 7th century Dark Ages. Why the fuck is this religion allowed in my country?! Let me ask you, when these hate preachers stand up and spew their evil shit why do all the muslims not stand up and beat the shit out of them and throw them out on to the street and say NO, I do not want this evil shit in my mosque. If they aren’t doing that, then what ARE they doing? The Times crossword perhaps? Yeah, right. Earlier this year there were 5000 muslims in Lancashire who marched for the birthday of Muhammed. Where are all the muslims marching against Islamic extremism? 5000 people can turn up for their stupid imaginary friends birthday and yet the most I ever hear from them against extremism is a shared facebook post by some random guy saying “Hey, I’m a muslim and I don’t like what happened in France”. Perhaps he should go to Saudi Arabia and say that and see what happens to him.
I wonder actually what would happen if you asked each of those 1.6 billion muslims individually in private “Would you renounce your religion in exchange for world peace?” I actually did this once, and suddenly (and unsurprisingly) the conversation was over with no response given. None was needed though because silence speaks for itself and, with religion, what you have is billions of people all hoping to go to a nice afterlife who sit by and allow hatred and suffering and segregation and a whole host of other nasty shit to happen in the world because they don’t want to go against their gods wishes and ruin their chances of a nice little after life for themselves at the end of it all. Selfish, evil pricks. I can guarantee you that that’s another massive chunk of the rest of the 1.6 billion.
As soon as you stand up and say ‘I am Christian’ or ‘I am Jewish’ or ‘I am Muslim’ you immediately drive a steak between yourself and all others by saying that you are different from them in some way. You don’t need statistics from me to understand this. You can even see it with your own eyes. You just need to drive down the right streets and you will find certain areas that are clearly almost entirely Islamic and where there is not an un-burqa’d female head to be seen. I don’t give a shit how innocent a person thinks they are, if they identify themselves as being of a religion then they are partly responsible for the segregation and hatred in this world. 1.6 billion people, each a small cog in a monstrous machine of intolerance, hatred and suppression.”
“Islam offers nothing but hate and intolerance. How dare you try and imply that without Islam we would all be living naked and without technology. First of all, you are not even correct. It was the Hindus who invented our numeric system, not the muslims, so I don’t even know why you are mentioning it because its irrelevant. Plus, are you honestly so naïve that you believe that if we hadn’t adopted the Arabic numeric system then none of our technology would have been invented and everyone would have just sat around on their naked ass and done nothing instead? Do you believe that if the wheel hadn’t been invented at the exact moment that it was then in all the time since it wouldn’t have been invented by a different person instead? We did have a numerical system before then you know. It might not have been as good as the Arabic one but the imperial measurement system is an absolute backwards sack of shit yet the Americans used it to send men to the moon. I think perhaps that you are not as logical as you perceive yourself to be. Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you in to buildings. End of story.
There is one more thing I want to touch on before I order a kebab which, along with all the other meat I buy, and against all my wishes, has a good chance of being made using animals that were slaughtered by having their throats slit and bled to death all in the name of fucking shitty islam. How many of the 1.6 billion insist on this animal cruelty each meal just so they can go to their selfish prick afterlife, I wonder?
You might like what I have to say next. It isn’t related to religion; it is related to race, but it is not raceIST. It’s a nice mathematical calculation for you to figure out. I am going to google for the figures, but feel free to disagree with me on them and plug in your own if you feel that they are slightly off.
According to the 2011 census, there were 63.26 million people living in the UK. Out of that, 51.74 million were ‘white British’ leaving 11.52 million ‘minorities’. Birth rates for white British people are currently about 1.7 children per couple, but for minorities they are about 3.0 per couple. This means that for every 2,000,000 white British people there will be 1,700,000 children in the next generation. Then the generation after that there will be 1,445,000 and so on. With minorities on the other hand that 2,000,000 will become 3,000,000, and then 4,500,000. Why don’t you do the maths with those figures I gave you and work out what the percentage of population will be in just 5 generations. Its basic maths, but generally people don’t understand it. Does the result not scare you? Because it scares the shit out of me that’s for sure. These groups like Britain First and BNP are mocked for being ‘thick’ or ‘ignorant’ when in reality they see these things that their naïve critics do not; they just lack the skill of articulation to properly explain themselves. I have heard people who are the complete opposite and really have no useful skill in this world other than the ability to talk, mock those people, when in reality they actually do something that most have never done and that is to go out on to the streets and march for what they believe in. You can say what you want about people like Nick Griffin, but you know what, he walked through the streets and got called names and spat on and punched and kicked every day of his life and yet still after all that he stood up for what he believed in, and for that I have a massive amount of respect.
The people of Britain and Europe have lost their right to exist as a culture and race in their own countries. London, our own capital, now has a population of less than half native white British. How fucked up is it that the capital of a country has less native people in it than of other cultures? Where is my culture going Ethar? This isn’t multiculturalism, it is the genocide of my race, and you expect me to sit back and take it? My one and only unique culture is being replaced by a multitude of others, along with all the other cultures in Europe too. Everyone should have a right to a place that they call their homeland and a unique identity to be proud of, but mine is on its way to extinction because the cancer of islam is relentlessly eating it away, and it won’t ever stop. Ever. Enoch Powell was right, and even though what he said is happening right now before our very eyes, people still stick their head in the sand, even when the enemy shouts it from the rooftops.
“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”
– Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965–1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN”
My Response to the 2 Post Response. Equally, 2 posts Long
“You see the problem with the first part of your argument is it shows a distinct lack of understanding of what Islam actually states, easily as much as the fanatics that are currently causing the world sh*t now. The rest also seems to indicate you actually have a problem with the school that rammed multiculturalism down your throat but you’re taking it out on the muslims. Still, I’ll look past that given you took the time to reply.
The Burkha. That for example isn’t worn in any country outside Afghanistan and last I checked, that didn’t have a population of over a billion (it has a population of 30.55 million). However, you are stating it does. Where are the numbers or is that the mental filtering that all humans or those needing to justify their perspective and emotional experience?
In Saudi Arabia they wear an abaya, either with a headscarf, worn as far west as the western baltic states, the niqab by choice (I know, I lived there for a bit, despite being born and living all the rest of my life here) OR a burqa which last time I was there, nobody ever wore, but they have the choice to. The only thing absolutely required by Saudi law is that muslim women have to wear an abaya, no niqab, no veil, no burqu nothing . The face certainly doesn’t need to be covered but many women do it out of choice. In addition, when in the segregated social settings, they can shed the outer layer of clothing. So the headscarf and the abaya (or the burqa if they have chosen to wear one).
Here’s the kicker, nobody in muslim’s two main sects considers the Wahabism in Saudi to represent their views in any way and very many consider it too extreme.
Kosovo — Majority muslim population has more muslims in it than Iraq! Read (2011 results)
“Oh yeah forgot about them”
Guess what, nobody wears a headscarf there! You know why? They banned it! A majory muslim country banned it! Mainly because the government introduced secularism in 2008 after the wars we had to help them out with. This didn’t stop the muslims being muslims. In addition, Syria never required it, Jordan only has a tiny context where it applies, Egypt absolutely never needed it (in all it’s years — even with the radical muslim governments of late) and there are areas in the middle east that there is pressure NOT to veil at all!
Here, look (2008 results — for info, general modesty is interpreted as bottom of the neck to ankles for women and waist to knees as men)!
So let’s return to the UK. WE in the UK killed people in capital punishment until 1964 and homosexuals were criminals until relatively recently, that ended up causing Alan Turing, the father of the subject you work in, to take his own life. So we’re not exactly that far ahead frankly. Additionally, and this may come as a surprise, most muslim countries where women work in the same roles as men, they earn equal pay, we still don’t do that here!
Islam doesn’t want any part of the English culture? You sure? Let’s try their malls:
They’re not intolerant of our way of life. Why would ‘they’ be here if that was the case?
In terms of executions, that was the way we executed in the 18th century. So what? I agree it’s inhumane, much like disembowelling or someone dying by being hung, drawn and quartered.
In terms of hate preachers, do you know how many mosques there are? When you find that out, compare with the number that have a sustained, radical presence or imam that preaches hate. Once you have that ratio, go and find nightclubs around the country and locate the ones in the neighbourhood of it that had been infiltrated and run by gangs. Manchester was full of them at least until the year 2,000. Then do the same in other countries which were run by the mafia or triads. Chances are you’re selecting muslims and tarring them with the same brush (that’s one problem) and then making it worse than any of these other types of criminality. So it’s a double whammy, magnifying in your head. People do throw out extremist preachers by never allowing them to speak in the first place. You get invited to mosques, not force your way in grin emoticon
The marches. Oh year forgot, this didn’t happen:
Nor did this:
Or Tunisia, another location which is 98% muslim, which banned the headscarf (only for the ban to be lifted again in 2011 — but note, this didn’t introduce a requirement to wear one);
Just because you aren’t seeing it through the lens of the BBC, ITV or Sky, doesn’t mean It’s not happening. They have half an hour to tell you the news, can they cover everything? Especially if it goes against a mindset like yours?
Now this is actually symptomatic of an interpretation by the individual on no data. In statistics, this is an inconclusive result. You can’t make a decision on an inconclusive result.
“I wonder actually what would happen if you asked each of those 1.6 billion muslims individually in private “Would you renounce your religion in exchange for world peace?” I actually did this once, and suddenly (and unsurprisingly) the conversation was over with no response given.”
So that shows me you’re not thinking rationally or you don’t know what rational thinking is… cr@p I’ve just fond another one:
“You don’t need statistics from me to understand this.”
…err… That’s probably a good thing!?!
“You can even see it with your own eyes. You just need to drive down the right streets and you will find certain areas that are clearly almost entirely Islamic and where there is not an un-burqa’d female head to be seen.”
Like Salford!? You’re confusing “ghetto-isation” with Islam. You know if you walk down some poor areas of Salford, you don’t see a brown face, but you see the same sort of community build up. This is actually a process of self-sufficiency. If you are in a community which doesn’t require you to ever leave, it, why would you leave it? It’s the same in ‘local’ villages, poor indian, sikh communities, black communities in the states, eastern european communities whatever and wherever in the world they are.
By comparison, London makes it very very difficult to work and live in one specific area, mainly because of the cost of living. So you know what happens? They go and work elsewhere, which naturally increases integration. The poor in London are being shipped to surrounding owns, and even Brum and Manchester, to live off the welfare state here because they can’t house them in London.
…To be continued.
“Islam offers nothing but hate and intolerance.”
You know this because you know Islam? You don’t know Islam, and you haven’t read up on Islam and you haven’t got data on Islam. So you can’t make that authoritative statement.
“How dare you try and imply that without Islam we would all be living naked and without technology. First of all, you are not even correct. It was the Hindus who invented our numeric system, not the muslims, so I don’t even know why you are mentioning it because its irrelevant.”
Not irrelevant. Show me something that can be build effectively without numbers. See this computer, yeh? The clothes you’re wearing, yeah?
You can’t get away from the fact that we live in a world where Mathematics was advanced hugely by the work of Islam[ic] scholars. It’s a really inconvenient truth, granted. It’s also completely separate from the religion, hence I agree in that regard, however, the people that invented those elements happened to be muslim. You can’t get away from it. It’s history. We can’t change it. It’s the same as if you respond to the above with “Yeah, we were sh*t then, but we’ve learned now that we shouldn’t have been so shit so we’re gonna go back and like, change that. Where’s my hoverboard doc?”
The key to whether or not someone would have advanced the knowledge of humankind is to look at whether independent discoveries happened. One such famous example is Leibniz versus Newton’s independent inventions of calculus. That happened at roughly the same time so yes, in that case, it would have been. However, history is riddles with delays between finding something and using it or an independent discovery being popularised. This is especially true of some parts of steam locomotion, where our history books have credited people with discoveries which were actually discovered decages of more beforehand. The wheel you speak of for example, according to wiki, it was created in the late Neolithic period but then died out until it appeared on stuff during the bronze age. So there was a 4,000 year gap!
If religion flies you into buildings, how come more buildings haven’t collapsed so far?
The reason why I don’t do the maths with the figures you gave, is because only a dumbass would. Population growth is defined by two main differentials, one being the birth rate, which you have kindly supplied, the other being the death rate, which you’re too narrow minded to know about. People from ethnic minorities have a lower life expectancy than those in the UK, so their death rate is higher. Below is the equation. I’ll trade my United Nations mathematical experience against your armchair one any day of the week. So feel free to duck out of the numbers side of this discussion before you end up looking a bit foolish.
UKiP, Britain First, the EDL and the BNP are first class thickos. In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is kind. Never is that more true than this:
But equally [they’re manipulative]:
It’s cool though, whatever makes you feel better about yourself. However, I sense that even you are believing that your ‘race’ is under threat, since you end your last message with:
“This isn’t multiculturalism, it is the genocide of my race, and you expect me to sit back and take it?”
So this is actually about race?! Bear in mind that there is only one race. There is nothing else. Your blood is the same as my blood. Genetic differences exist due to epigentic effects that cause evolutionary difference in the way individuals’ skin colours are due to the proximity of the community to the sun based on their position on this earth. We are just one species. So perhaps this is about race after all.”
His Killer Response!
“Ethar I am going to stop you there because I read a few lines of your first post and then stopped reading.[EA: fine I’ll give it to others to read] We aren’t going to agree and I’m not going to argue so I’m not going to continue. I would love nothing more than for everyone on this planet to live side by side in peace and harmony with no wars or religion or hatred or poverty or suffering and that is what I am going to be wishing for this Christmas (along with every other day of my life). Perhaps we can both agree on that at least. Peace to you Ethar Alali ❤” — posted link to John Lennon “Imagine”
- John Lennon Would be Proud